i have always thought this verse was a description of the creative power of the Tao. for instance Gu Zhengkun translates this verse as "The Tao never dies; It is a deep womb. And the opening of the womb Is called the root of heaven and earth. It exists for ever, And its use can never be exhausted." http://home.pages.at/onkellotus/TTK/English_Zhengkun_TTK.html http://www.amazon.com/Book-Tao-Teh-Lao-Tzu/dp/7500112009

where is Master Rinzai when you need him?

@Q i think we have already concluded this translator doesn't understand wu-wei.

The phrase translated as "impartial", is originally "is not ren (仁)", which I now think is an allusion to the Confucian school. A more literal rendering would be "without sympathy" or "apathetic".

This chapter now seems to me to be teaching - at any rate anticipating - the famous wu wei or "doing nothing" political doctrine. Confucius uses ren as the standard that the rulers must follow: quite simply it means to keep the people's interests at heart. Lao Tzu offers the opposite standard. He first offers a parallel: just like nature (heaven and earth) has no concern for all beings and works just fine, political communities would so as well - when the rulers ("the wise" or "the sagely") do not pay special concern to his "people".

Next, he elaborates the parallel. He describes what is between heaven and earth as a vast emptiness, paradoxically capable of producing anything. Somehow this is connected to language - the more the decrees or legislation intend to "fill in the details", the more tedious it gets (it becomes "more and more about less and less"). Now considering the extremes between "too much" and "too little", he advocates a middle way - just the right amount of speaking and behaving. So he's not advocating "doing nothing" simply (just as laissez faire never meant letting anything go simply), but "just the right amount" of speeches and actions that in a sense imitates the easygoing-ness, the "effortless naturalness" of the universe.

PS. Come to think of it, there may also be a double reference to "middle" or "center": not only do we comport ourselves in a state of dynamic stability, our place in the universe is also "between" or in the middle of heaven and earth.

I've always understood 'valley spirit' to refer to Yin. This is not a reference to an actual woman, or the idea of being a woman, it's the Yin spirit — receding, forgiving, yielding. Lao Tzu is saying that the more subtle viewpoint of people who think in the Yin way will never fail.

I love the second track

damn i didn't know the great one had a translation. yes, this translator seems to of missed the point of wu-wei and the literalness of the translation is making for some tough reading when i wanna get all poetic and mystical.

Yeah, I have issues with the "If nothing is done, then all will be well." and "Stop doing stuff all the time, and watch what happens." as it seems to encourage passivity. I believe that "when action is pure and selfless everything settles into its own perfect place" or "as to those who have knowledge already, he teacheth them the way of non-action" capture the original intent better, of getting rid of the before-mentioned concept of agency rather than calling for any specific behaviour, or absence thereof.

The translation I quoted above is that of Aleister Crowley.

i have usually thought this verse explains tao as being before existence, "it is the forefather of the gods". i would liken this verse to asking "what was before the big bang". Tao is clearly more than a term used to make the indescribable describable, this verse clearly states it is a limitless pool from which all existence derives from. i would almost be tempted to call tao vacuum energy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vacuum_energy) from the description in this verse.

@Einar with thanks to Ron

"How much Tao is there? More than you'll ever need. Use all you want, there's plenty more where that came from.

You can't see Tao, but it's there. Damned if I know where it came from. It's just always been around." http://www.beatrice.com/TAO.pdf

isn't this verse a warning about the dangers of an inflated ego and the first piece of advice for good government?

@Einar sorry :) the ten thousand things have kept me busy :) my bet is james legge translation.

@Mikal doesn't zen owe everything to tao? lol :)

in the interest of not being sued by penguin i might make a point of using Ron Hogan's translation

"If you toss compliments around freely, people will waste your time trying to impress you. If you give things too much value, you're going to get ripped off. If you try to please people, you'll just make them pissed.

The Master leads by clearing the crap out of people's heads and opening their hearts. He lowers their aspirations and makes them suck in their guts.

He shows you how to forget what you know and what you want, so nobody can push you around. If you think you've got the answers, he'll mess with your head.

Stop doing stuff all the time, and watch what happens." http://www.beatrice.com/TAO.pdf

although Jonathan's last two lines are beautiful "when action is pure and selfless everything settles into its own perfect place"

i think this is quite good advice regarding behavior . simply put, don't be selfish.

I like that interpretation.

If you could understand French, I would recommend you to listen to master Gu Meisheng a taji quan master speaking about Taoism and the application of it in taiji quan http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9fRJd4Bpgs

Either place is great — the website just sends me an email, and I've set up a rule and a load of smart folders so that any comments from anywhere get to the same place. I've actually not had anyone use the web comment box yet (either that or it's not working… I may have to check it again).

I'm still pondering yesterday's chapter...

Hey, getting disagreements from people is one of the reasons I'm doing this! I'll have to have a look at that other translation — sticking to Jane English for this project though as she kindly gave me permission to use hers on my website.

I think octo fish expresses it best, saying dualistic categories have no inherent existence. My fave example of this is the story of the man and his boy who finds some wild horses. Lots of 'good' and 'bad' things happen, ending up with something 'bad' preventing the boy from getting killed in a war.

That's the story I tell people when I'm explaining how Taoism helps reduce the effects of the preconceptions society forces on us.

I think translations aside, I think just from context it has to mean that dualistic categories have no inherent existence and are a conditioned product of perception. Otherwise the 10,000 things arising and falling wouldn't make any sense. If a category has a fixed, inherent existence, it can't arise and fall. It would just be, always.

I wonder, do you want thoughts here or on the page or both places?

It is similar to the stories of Zen, about the teachings being a boat to take you to the other side of the river. Once you reach the other shore, you shed the boat. The poem hints at the true reality experience, but it cannot provide it, no words can.

My interpretation:
The foundation of thought and language is categories and pattern matching; every word/thought is meaningful only in that it includes some parts of reality and excludes other. Thus, the true unity of reality can never be named, only experienced if you are really, really quiet.

A thing, like the late Alan Watts so eloquently put it, is really a think - a unit of thought. Words are phonetic reflections of thoughts and they are the mother of all things.

But all of reality is a unity, everything springs from the same source. But even so, all the different things, and the experience of them, are all within that said unity.

Fun experiment: Putting it in different clothes (and please don't put too much of your pre-conceived notions of what the words mean into it, use it instead to try to see these old words in a new light).

The name of God can never be mentioned, and none of the named gods are real.

God is the creator of Heaven and Earth, The devil is the father of 10000 lies.

In virtue, you can approach God. In sin, there is only the Devil.

The Will of God is mysterious but both virtue and sin lie within it

Look within and all shall be revealed.

Cool — hope things stabilise a bit more now!

nothing new to see. but server was having odd cpu spikes for the last 4 hours so I fully restarted everything..

Glad to know the site works! Yep, it'll be great seeing what you make of the text.