i have usually thought this verse explains tao as being before existence, "it is the forefather of the gods". i would liken this verse to asking "what was before the big bang". Tao is clearly more than a term used to make the indescribable describable, this verse clearly states it is a limitless pool from which all existence derives from. i would almost be tempted to call tao vacuum energy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vacuum_energy) from the description in this verse.

@Einar with thanks to Ron

"How much Tao is there? More than you'll ever need. Use all you want, there's plenty more where that came from.

You can't see Tao, but it's there. Damned if I know where it came from. It's just always been around." http://www.beatrice.com/TAO.pdf

isn't this verse a warning about the dangers of an inflated ego and the first piece of advice for good government?

@Einar sorry :) the ten thousand things have kept me busy :) my bet is james legge translation.

@Mikal doesn't zen owe everything to tao? lol :)

in the interest of not being sued by penguin i might make a point of using Ron Hogan's translation

"If you toss compliments around freely, people will waste your time trying to impress you. If you give things too much value, you're going to get ripped off. If you try to please people, you'll just make them pissed.

The Master leads by clearing the crap out of people's heads and opening their hearts. He lowers their aspirations and makes them suck in their guts.

He shows you how to forget what you know and what you want, so nobody can push you around. If you think you've got the answers, he'll mess with your head.

Stop doing stuff all the time, and watch what happens." http://www.beatrice.com/TAO.pdf

although Jonathan's last two lines are beautiful "when action is pure and selfless everything settles into its own perfect place"

i think this is quite good advice regarding behavior . simply put, don't be selfish.

I like that interpretation.

If you could understand French, I would recommend you to listen to master Gu Meisheng a taji quan master speaking about Taoism and the application of it in taiji quan http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9fRJd4Bpgs

Either place is great — the website just sends me an email, and I've set up a rule and a load of smart folders so that any comments from anywhere get to the same place. I've actually not had anyone use the web comment box yet (either that or it's not working… I may have to check it again).

I'm still pondering yesterday's chapter...

Hey, getting disagreements from people is one of the reasons I'm doing this! I'll have to have a look at that other translation — sticking to Jane English for this project though as she kindly gave me permission to use hers on my website.

I think octo fish expresses it best, saying dualistic categories have no inherent existence. My fave example of this is the story of the man and his boy who finds some wild horses. Lots of 'good' and 'bad' things happen, ending up with something 'bad' preventing the boy from getting killed in a war.

That's the story I tell people when I'm explaining how Taoism helps reduce the effects of the preconceptions society forces on us.

I think translations aside, I think just from context it has to mean that dualistic categories have no inherent existence and are a conditioned product of perception. Otherwise the 10,000 things arising and falling wouldn't make any sense. If a category has a fixed, inherent existence, it can't arise and fall. It would just be, always.

I wonder, do you want thoughts here or on the page or both places?

It is similar to the stories of Zen, about the teachings being a boat to take you to the other side of the river. Once you reach the other shore, you shed the boat. The poem hints at the true reality experience, but it cannot provide it, no words can.

My interpretation:
The foundation of thought and language is categories and pattern matching; every word/thought is meaningful only in that it includes some parts of reality and excludes other. Thus, the true unity of reality can never be named, only experienced if you are really, really quiet.

A thing, like the late Alan Watts so eloquently put it, is really a think - a unit of thought. Words are phonetic reflections of thoughts and they are the mother of all things.

But all of reality is a unity, everything springs from the same source. But even so, all the different things, and the experience of them, are all within that said unity.

Fun experiment: Putting it in different clothes (and please don't put too much of your pre-conceived notions of what the words mean into it, use it instead to try to see these old words in a new light).

The name of God can never be mentioned, and none of the named gods are real.

God is the creator of Heaven and Earth, The devil is the father of 10000 lies.

In virtue, you can approach God. In sin, there is only the Devil.

The Will of God is mysterious but both virtue and sin lie within it

Look within and all shall be revealed.

Cool — hope things stabilise a bit more now!

nothing new to see. but server was having odd cpu spikes for the last 4 hours so I fully restarted everything..

Glad to know the site works! Yep, it'll be great seeing what you make of the text.

Great idea, I look forward to reading it!

Cheers! It's not for everybody. The thing is, more electronic music is so much easier to produce when you've only got one microphone, and lack a studio!

The intent is well done :-) though it's not my style. I mean the electronic part of it.

This sounds like a cool community project!

I think I'll be using the Feng and English one. As the final aim is to turn it into a really great interactive web book I decided to go for that one as I felt it balanced substance with prose the best. Although I'm open to suggestions if you have a particular fave?

What translation?

I have another contact in Totnes, too, a good online friend for many years, and have seen photos of how great it is there :)