nice concept

This one seems to be a straightforward comment on wu wei, actionless action. Wu wei does not involve striving, it involves accepting. When one identifies with Dao rather than the individual self, all of the world's gains are the gains of the sage, all of the losses, the losses of the sage. To understand this is unleash boundless love for the world.

Since the Tao is Void, it can manifest as all the myriad things, as all the aspects and attitudes of the world. The Sage must also be like this, living in the flow of the world, becoming what it is needed, leaving behind what is not, letting the world take its course. Water follows the path of least resistance, but cuts through the mountain. Water changes its shape as needed, but cannot be cut.

To me, it means I need to get off Diaspora this morning, because I've been on for too long. Beyond the obvious too much of a good thing is quite bad meaning, I think there is also the sense that being too invested in any sort of "goal" or "progress" actually causes more harm than good and feeds the flames of desire, discontent, self-importance, and selfishness.

To me: know when to stop in the pursuit of wealth and power - too much of either brings heartaches.

Well, in the time it was written being rich was dangerous; there were always plots to get your wealth. This does not apply so much anymore...

Though jealousy is always in the human heart and those that posses something like money, beauty, intelligence, fame often feel its paws.

But earth (and heavens) were born from the ashes of the universe (and who knows where that was born from) and they will vanish when there time comes.

coincidentally, i just looked up this chapter last week because it reminded me of joshu's mu (chinese wu). http://sped2work.tripod.com/chao-chou.html

I completely what you mean (although you took your time saying it!). My aim was never to do some kind of pompous 're-interpretation' of the TTC, but merely to see what other people thought it means, so as not to be stuck with what I thought it meant — and to enable others to do the same. So far it's been pretty interesting, and has altered the things I read into some of the passages.

Relating back to today's chapter, you could say I'm trying to detach myself from my interpretation in order to engage better with possible broader meanings.

except sometimes it IS better to not use words. Like... right now. :)

Yeah I agree that it's about Yin and Yang. This stuff is a bit weird in the contemporary context as it's tied up with symbolism associated with the patriarchy and gender roles of the context it came from. But from a metaphysics point of view it's right on. He's just saying, don't be all Yang guys. Try listening and responding to what's happening once in a while rather than trying to impose your will all over the place. That's where novelty comes from. Simple really :).

i have always thought this verse was a description of the creative power of the Tao. for instance Gu Zhengkun translates this verse as "The Tao never dies; It is a deep womb. And the opening of the womb Is called the root of heaven and earth. It exists for ever, And its use can never be exhausted." http://home.pages.at/onkellotus/TTK/English_Zhengkun_TTK.html http://www.amazon.com/Book-Tao-Teh-Lao-Tzu/dp/7500112009

where is Master Rinzai when you need him?

@Q i think we have already concluded this translator doesn't understand wu-wei.

The phrase translated as "impartial", is originally "is not ren (仁)", which I now think is an allusion to the Confucian school. A more literal rendering would be "without sympathy" or "apathetic".

This chapter now seems to me to be teaching - at any rate anticipating - the famous wu wei or "doing nothing" political doctrine. Confucius uses ren as the standard that the rulers must follow: quite simply it means to keep the people's interests at heart. Lao Tzu offers the opposite standard. He first offers a parallel: just like nature (heaven and earth) has no concern for all beings and works just fine, political communities would so as well - when the rulers ("the wise" or "the sagely") do not pay special concern to his "people".

Next, he elaborates the parallel. He describes what is between heaven and earth as a vast emptiness, paradoxically capable of producing anything. Somehow this is connected to language - the more the decrees or legislation intend to "fill in the details", the more tedious it gets (it becomes "more and more about less and less"). Now considering the extremes between "too much" and "too little", he advocates a middle way - just the right amount of speaking and behaving. So he's not advocating "doing nothing" simply (just as laissez faire never meant letting anything go simply), but "just the right amount" of speeches and actions that in a sense imitates the easygoing-ness, the "effortless naturalness" of the universe.

PS. Come to think of it, there may also be a double reference to "middle" or "center": not only do we comport ourselves in a state of dynamic stability, our place in the universe is also "between" or in the middle of heaven and earth.

I've always understood 'valley spirit' to refer to Yin. This is not a reference to an actual woman, or the idea of being a woman, it's the Yin spirit — receding, forgiving, yielding. Lao Tzu is saying that the more subtle viewpoint of people who think in the Yin way will never fail.

I love the second track

damn i didn't know the great one had a translation. yes, this translator seems to of missed the point of wu-wei and the literalness of the translation is making for some tough reading when i wanna get all poetic and mystical.

Yeah, I have issues with the "If nothing is done, then all will be well." and "Stop doing stuff all the time, and watch what happens." as it seems to encourage passivity. I believe that "when action is pure and selfless everything settles into its own perfect place" or "as to those who have knowledge already, he teacheth them the way of non-action" capture the original intent better, of getting rid of the before-mentioned concept of agency rather than calling for any specific behaviour, or absence thereof.

The translation I quoted above is that of Aleister Crowley.

i have usually thought this verse explains tao as being before existence, "it is the forefather of the gods". i would liken this verse to asking "what was before the big bang". Tao is clearly more than a term used to make the indescribable describable, this verse clearly states it is a limitless pool from which all existence derives from. i would almost be tempted to call tao vacuum energy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vacuum_energy) from the description in this verse.

@Einar with thanks to Ron

"How much Tao is there? More than you'll ever need. Use all you want, there's plenty more where that came from.

You can't see Tao, but it's there. Damned if I know where it came from. It's just always been around." http://www.beatrice.com/TAO.pdf

isn't this verse a warning about the dangers of an inflated ego and the first piece of advice for good government?

@Einar sorry :) the ten thousand things have kept me busy :) my bet is james legge translation.

@Mikal doesn't zen owe everything to tao? lol :)

in the interest of not being sued by penguin i might make a point of using Ron Hogan's translation

"If you toss compliments around freely, people will waste your time trying to impress you. If you give things too much value, you're going to get ripped off. If you try to please people, you'll just make them pissed.

The Master leads by clearing the crap out of people's heads and opening their hearts. He lowers their aspirations and makes them suck in their guts.

He shows you how to forget what you know and what you want, so nobody can push you around. If you think you've got the answers, he'll mess with your head.

Stop doing stuff all the time, and watch what happens." http://www.beatrice.com/TAO.pdf

although Jonathan's last two lines are beautiful "when action is pure and selfless everything settles into its own perfect place"

i think this is quite good advice regarding behavior . simply put, don't be selfish.